tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post6692533496007612224..comments2024-03-26T13:06:41.178-04:00Comments on Jagat: Sadharanikarana and Manjari BhavaJagadananda Dashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-66264084940496563192007-03-10T18:55:00.000-05:002007-03-10T18:55:00.000-05:00Once again, thank you Shivaji, for your erudite co...Once again, thank you Shivaji, for your erudite comments. What you say is cogent, and it is the risk that anyone putting forth an opinion has to deal with. I cannot say much more than repeat something Sanatan Goswami has written: <I>siddhasya lakSaNaM yat syAt, sAdhanaM sAdhakasya tat</I>: "The symptoms of the siddha are the practices of the aspirant." <BR/><BR/>It became apparent to me a long time ago that if you aim at madhyama adhikari status, as one used to hear in Iskcon, one ends up as a kanishtha. To hit madhyama, you are better off aiming at uttama. I believe that you are with me on this: we have to think in terms of the ultimate goal and hope for the best when whatever is in between is concerned. <BR/><BR/>So it is important to understand here what is the median stage, what the median devotee is capable of, etc. The principle characteristic of the median devotee here would be the capacity to understand, which would require a degree of experience, i.e., a fairly thorough familiarity with Gaudiya Vaishnava theology and a fairly high degree of sattva-guna. Finally, I would say that the divine mercy involved in finding the right gurus and the right sadhana partner are pretty rare. So we are not talking Britney Spears level international record sales. So I'll just bumble on and we'll see what happens. A lot depends on Krishna's mercy.<BR/><BR/>The Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu states the following:<BR/><BR/>For those whose faults have been entirely removed by the performance of devotional practices, whose minds are peaceful (making them suitable for the appearance of pure goodness’ special features) and effulgent (and thus equipped with full knowledge), who are attached to hearing the Bhagavata Purana and who find happiness in the association of devotees, for whom the joy of service to Govinda has become the raison-d’être of their existence, and who are always engaged in the most confidential processes of developing love for Krishna, the particular loving relational attitude (rati = sthayi-bhava) towards Krishna that is effulgently manifest in their hearts due to the conditioning of both past and present lives,<BR/>is brought to the status of rasa. (Brs 2.1.6-10).<BR/><BR/>So that is a set of pretty elevated requirements.<BR/><BR/>As far as my own qualifications are concerned, I don't think you can discount entirely the experiential sources of my ideas. If I did not have something particularly strong inside of me, something more than mere scholarship, pushing me to express it. <BR/><BR/>Of course I am unsure of the degree to which my life experiences are sui generis and thus relevant or irrelevant to others. Of course, it may well be argued (as you have just done) that there is no power in them--after all, I am just an insignificant blogger with no material or spiritual assets, so that certainly diminishes the seriousness with which I will be accepted. At least, these are factors that likely will have greater bearing on my destiny.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, the concepts stand on their own and will take on a life of their own, with or without me. <B>They are the life of Radha and Krishna in me.</B>Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-63337192487232563982007-03-10T16:45:00.000-05:002007-03-10T16:45:00.000-05:00Jagat you wrote:"Manjari bhava is thus, according ...Jagat you wrote:<BR/><BR/>"Manjari bhava is thus, according to Rupa Goswami, the highest manifestation of the concept of watering the root delineated in the Bhagavatam:<BR/><BR/>yathA taror mUla-niSecanena<BR/>yathA taror mUla niSecanena<BR/>tRpyanti tat skandha bhujopazAkhAH<BR/>prANopahArAc ca yathendriyANAM<BR/><BR/><BR/>As a tree’s trunk, branches, twigs and leaves are nourished by watering its roots, and as all the senses are satisfied by giving food to the stomach, so similarly, all living beings are served by worshiping the infallible Supreme Person (SB 4.31.14)."<BR/><BR/>Understanding "manjari bhava" is not possible for anyone until they come to a very advanced state of bhakti. You provided a quote that illuminates this:<BR/><BR/>""Don't look outside until your mind has been saturated with bhava. For a mind saturated with bhava will find Krishna's presence even in those places where others cannot find him. On the other hand, if your inner mood is immature, you will not have the ability to see him there. By meditating constantly on the inner moods of the Great Souls, one becomes saturated with their attitude and all mundane considerations are forgotten. <B>At that time, inside and out become one and one relishes the taste of the rasa just as the previous great souls did.</B>"<BR/><BR/>In a previous comment I wrote something similar:<BR/><BR/>"A bhakti yogi may get a glimpse of "the Other" from the Guru or sastra or mantra or other yogis, but the ego will not become secondary to the "Divine Meaning" until the bhakti yogi sees "the Other" within himself and learns to cease self identification with the internal world. Then the external world becomes the extended reality of the internal world i.e. "the Other" is directly seen everywhere in control of everything at all times, whether it be through the Guru, the sastra, the mantra, the other yogis, or the guy selling drinks on the street or the cat scratching at your leg or the trees rustling or the cars honking. It all becomes a canvas through which "the Other" is expressing itself to the enlightened yogi."<BR/><BR/>From the above quote of yours "<B>At that time, inside and out become one and one relishes the taste of the rasa just as the previous great souls did.</B>" What is being described is real rasa with god, real interaction with god internally and externally. Only at that stage can the truth of "manjari bhava" be realized. <BR/><BR/>Your overall sahajiya (or whatever you want to call it) presentation is a premise predicated on your belief that you can create a syncretic theology (or maybe just an esoteric theology which appears syncretic) based upon philosophical analysis and subjective experience which can illuminate a deeper esoteric message then what has been traditionally accepted by the orthodox community. <BR/><BR/>I don't think you can accomplish your goal. From my perspective your premise is faulty. I do admire the amount of scholarship that you needed to have done in order to be able to construct your theology, but in the end, for me, it falls short not just because I disagree with many of your conclusions. The premise you labor under is that you seem to believe that you can intellectually create an esoteric understanding which you can be confidant of (to whatever degree) as being an objectively true esoteric version of bhakti yoga. I do not believe that is the proper attitude when approaching the objective transcendental nature of god's intimate life. <BR/><BR/>The philosopher can only accomplish so much in the endeavor to find objective absolute truth. In the finer details beyond the more broad categories of eternal truisms, the philosophical approach will not work. That is because in trying to discern what is real from what is unreal concerning the nature of the highest most intimate aspects of god's life we are left bereft of any actual objective reality to study. There may be sign posts and travel guides, but the destination will remain unknown until you actually stand on that soil. <BR/><BR/>We are limited by our lack of connection, our lack of direct revelation through personal one-on-one illumination. It is only by the giving of the higher reality is the higher reality really understood. Otherwise anyone could attain that highest reality by their own effort regardless of their personal qualification. <BR/><BR/>In reality only the qualified are given entrance. No one can understand nor enter into the perfect realization of the highest most intimate objective reality through an ascending process. You can read what are considered by many to be descriptions of the ultimate reality, but that information serves the purpose of elevating the consciousness of the reader, it does not introduce the reader to the highest reality. If it really did introduce the reader to the highest reality then that would be experienced by the reader. Is the purpose of sastra to give you a glimpse of the highest reality or is it meant to elevate your consciousness? Voyeurism is not the purpose of what is found in the descriptions by gaudiya acaryas of Radha Krishna rasa lila. It's purpose is purely for the purpose of affecting change in consciousnesss. There is no need of describing the highest reality in it's actual form if that description does not produce an elevation of consciousnes. The highest reality may be far removed from most descriptions of it because the highest reality in and of itself is not meant to elevate consciousness, it is meant for the enjoyment of it by those who have already been elevated to the highest level. If we are not experiencing the highest reality (direct relation with god) then even though we have studied in detail the proper information we should understand that we are lacking in our understanding. Otherwise why is that highest reality not experienced directly? The very highest truths are given out directly along with elevation to the highest level, they cannot be figured out indirectly through an ascending process of study or sadhana.Vrajahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06535159097241083544noreply@blogger.com