tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post8295435567116881147..comments2024-03-26T13:06:41.178-04:00Comments on Jagat: Literalism and the Shadow: Religion and the potential for evilJagadananda Dashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-74359610583673431492012-05-13T13:26:16.377-04:002012-05-13T13:26:16.377-04:00Jagat prabhu, I think this will prove to be of muc...Jagat prabhu, I think this will prove to be of much interest to you – it is certainly very gratifying to me. I wrote to Sripad Bhagavat Maharaj in regards to the Svalikhita-jivani … as I am unwilling to simply deny its validity because its contents do not fit my previous mindset! I wrote to Bhagavat Maharaj because I know that he has a very educated and rare set of experiences so as to afford a properly informed and broad perspective. Certainly he has broadened my own vision, and I am very happy to have my vision of such personalities as Srila Lalita Prasad Thakur expanded from one of offensive minimization or dismissal to one of proper respect as befits a true Vaisnava and maha-bhagavat. I am much happier being able to include all the apparently opposed elements of our sampradyas within a deeper context as opposed to needing to minimize or even condemn this one so as to maintain my loyalty to that …<br /><br />Dandavats Narasingha das,<br />All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga<br /><br />When Srila Prabhupada went to visit Lalita Prasada Thakura in 1972 Srila Prabhupada explained to him about his preaching work all over the world. Lalita Prasad Thakura Praised Srila Prabhupada saying you are the one who fulfilled Srila Bhaktivonode Thakuras vision to preach the mission of Mahaprabhu all over the world. So the so called followers do not understand what Lalita Prasad Thakuras vision is. Later I met with Lalit Prasad Thakura in 1979 after Srila Prabhupada left. He was bed ridden and could not leave the room. His servant used to take care of him with a bed pan. When I entered the room the bed pan was still there with a fresh deposit and the room smelled like roses. There are many people who may have misunderstood who He was and what he was teaching. However there was no doubt that he was a Pure Devotee. <br /><br />It is true that Lalita Prasad Thakura emphasized an initiation Process that was not the one that Srila Saraswati Thakura used but was closer to the Babajis. However that was the one that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura used when he was initiating. However that does not make Srila Saraswati Thakuras initiating process invalid. His initiation process which we use in the Guadiya maths was authorized by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura in order to preach the mission more widely to less qualified persons like us. So they are both right. However LPT followers want to make the distinction which is not necessary because neither they nor we have the vision to understand the so called dispute between the two. <br /><br />Srila Saraswati Thakura makes this point in his Brahma Samhita. In the purport to verse 37 he states: "Those, whose judgment is made of mundane stuff, being unable to enter into the spirit of the all-loving controversies among pure devotees, due to their own want of unalloyed devotion, are apt to impute to the devotees their own defects of partisanship and opposing views." <br /><br />I can tell you of many many incidents where Srila Gurudeva in order to protect our tender creepers and direct us in the practice of Bhakti in a certain way for our benefit would say that something did not appear in scripture that was there or that something did not happen in Gaudiya Matha that happened. He did so for the benefit of the general devotees. Again this is an area which you are not qualified to enter into. So I would suggest that you put these events behind you and concentrate on the teachings that Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva gave us for our Bhajan and not be concerned about such things. IN the future if any discrepancies arise about such things please ask me I am well versed in the histories of all of this and have met all of the senior disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakura in my youth and know the truth about all of this. Part of this is also residue of my past life memories since Srila Prabhupada told me I associated with him in my past life.Martin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-67148807026260654472012-05-13T10:23:12.080-04:002012-05-13T10:23:12.080-04:00A personal (& unrelated) question:
In one of ...A personal (& unrelated) question:<br /><br />In one of your final responses to me (and I have these on my email, though I don't see them on the blog itself), you refer to me as 'Narasingha Gurudas' - since I did not refer to myself like this, I am very curious about why you did?<br /><br />Re. Sri Bipin Bihari Goswami Maharaj - you should know that BG Narasingha Maharaj does not at all speak for the entire, as you call it, "IGM" - I would refer you to this very nice article from Srila BB Bodhayan Maharaj for a much more accurate and properly respectful comment on this subject:<br />http://www.bvml.org/SBBBM/rejecting.html<br /><br />Re. manjari-bhava ... I don't know why you are arguing with me as if I disagree with your commitment on this being the ultimate focus? The argument is about how to thus focus, what is the properly effective path by which we can indeed develop and strengthen that very thing. The principal difference between our 'camps' is that as a sahajiya you propose that regardess of your material conditioning you can simply jump in to the very highest sphere; whereas our position is that there is a very carefully and precisely delineated process, as established by Srila Rupa Goswami and also the other Goswamis. And that without accepting the authority and process of Sri Rupa, where is the possibility of being a Gaudiya Vaisnava, what to speak of a rupanuga?!?<br /><br />There are so many stories regarding unqualified attempts to enter the rasa dance ... the most famous is the lila of Mahadev, when Purnamasi gave him his gopi-body, that was at first rejected by the gopis, so that they slapped him and questioned him most harshly ... why? Because his entrance was unauthorized, and his mood was a disturbance to the actual mood of the gopis and Krsna.<br /><br />Similarly in the very intimate kirtans at Srivas Prabhu's house, which are non-different from the rasa-dance ... the presence of any 'unauthorized' persons obstructed the actual expression of the highest moods and tastes.<br /><br />Our business is not to disturb their mood simply because we are greedy for some experience of our own, regardless of our qualification to actually engage in such!<br /><br />The actual mood Mahaprabhu came to give was the mood of the manjaris - this is the greatest service ... we are meant to come to such a platform of serving the servants of Radharani, regardless of what we may or may not enjoy for ourselves.<br /><br />And this mood, so alien to our own conditioned or unpurified self-serving egotism, is fully expressed in the writings of all our acaryas, which are all 'authorized' by virtue of the actual realization of the authors, which they have so mercifully presented, replete with their own emotions, within their own words.<br /><br />I have no doubt you have various uncommon experiences, as do I also, as do so very many others on the spiritual path ... but the actual pure experiences of direct realization of the Supreme - are purely for those who are qualified to thus engage. Ultimately, when we do indeed have our own, our experiences will not be different, after all, the Truth we will be realizing, through the full and utterly undivided attention of all our fully spiritualized senses, is the same Vrajendra-Nandana who is already the only object of vision and affection of our acaryas.<br /><br />So why should we pay heed to our compromised experiences until that point? Rather, shouldn't all our attention be given simply to the unobstructed pure vision of our gurus? <br /><br />Radhe Radhe<br />Narasingha dasMartin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-58298840200979682892012-05-12T11:16:43.873-04:002012-05-12T11:16:43.873-04:00Some last thoughts
"Scripture is clear: ther...Some last thoughts<br /><br />"Scripture is clear: there can only be one initiating guru, who is not to be abandoned unless there is a sign of complete destitution from the spiritual path. There appears to be no evidence of this in the case of Bipin Bihari Goswami."<br /><br />You wrote this. And yet you also claim Sri Lalita Prasad to be your diksa guru. ?<br /><br />Contrary to your belief, I have indeed read over many of your blogs and related posts. And I am not accepting anything you have written blindly any more than I have accepted anything I have heard from Guru-Sadhu-Shastra blindly. You write as if I am foolish for not simply accepting the self-procliamed truths of which you write - and criticise me for adopting the traditional 'polemical' approach which you claim to be against the spirit of prema-bhakti.<br /><br />Pur tradition is filled with such polemics, as is abundantly evident in the writings of Srila Bhaktivinode, Srila Jiva and so many others. Why? Because no-one is meant to accept 'blindly' ... but that the early stages of vaidhi-bhakti, where we must begin (unless we are already so very advanced), demand becoming fixed in philosophical understanding, or our sraddha may be blown hither and thither. Without being strongly rooted in philosophy, which naturally involves polemics, we canot rise above kanistha.<br /><br />It may be in the later stages that absorption in philosophical debate is unnecessary, unpalatable even. The gopis are surely not doing such! But when they accompany Mahaprabhu, oh then they adopt this mood, for the benefit of all of us, who must otherwise labor under so many misconceptions.<br /><br />Artificially abandoning the protections and nourishments essential for gradual development through the successive stages of vaidhi-bhakti and artificially and externally adopting the 'spontaneous' moods and practices of raganuga bhakti, while whimsically abandoning the rules and regulations of vaidhi-bhakti, is the essence of the sahajiya misconception, as I have understood it.<br /><br />You have continually accused me of 'blind thoughtless following,' but you expect I should apply precisely that towards your own promotions, none of which you have backed with a shred of logical or polemic support ... and you have consistently ignored my many arguments and challenges to your own statements, responding only with unsupported ad hominem attacks on the quality and character of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas in the line of Saraswati Thakur.<br /><br />I did indeed want open dialog - but not mere exchanges of 'I think and believe this and that' ... but substantial philosophical dialog that explains the how's and why's of what is behind your thought, with the evidences of logic, argument, and guru-sadhu-shastra. I have certainly perused your other sites, and throughout I have found this mood predominant - you regularly criticise the followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta as misinformed, blind, thoughtless, non-progressive fundamentalists, but for no other reason that I could find other than that your own beliefs and practices are in such contradiction to theirs, and you are confronted by the disciplinary restraints their teachings would impose upon your own beliefs and practices. Meanwhile you write as if you are so obviously an authority that whatever you say should simply be accepted without bothering with the mundane tedium of such 'anti-prema-bhakti' practices of, God-forbis, polemical philosophical debate.<br /><br />I wish you well, and would extend to you a similar caution to the ones you have extended to me ... remember, belief is for those who don't actually know, as a matter of their own direct perception. It is therefore so essential to fully submit oneself to the direction of one who does indeed directly perceive ... so that our intelligence is best used to help us identify to whom it should be submitted.<br /><br />Blind following? We are already blind, prabhu. Our need is to follow one who sees.<br /><br />Narasingha dasMartin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-36557311480067345252012-05-12T02:24:40.526-04:002012-05-12T02:24:40.526-04:00Just one more thing. You assume that I am under th...Just one more thing. You assume that I am under the sludge of Maya and have received no grace, whereas you obviously are free from such problems by following your gurus.<br /><br />I have already said this, and I refuse to belabor the point. Krishna says I give the intelligence. Yes the guru is there in the beginning, but later, after you engage in bhakti and your intelligence is purified, you start to see things clearly. (yatha yathatma parimrijyate, etc.) <br /><br />Of course, one who is in the stage of simply hearing and repeating cannot escape the iron grip that words have on his experience. And so a cycle of repetition begins that quickly ossifies and ceases to be helpful. <br /><br />Mainly because the primary purpose is not really the truth, but merely the establishment of a kind of extended ego expansion that now includes gurus, institutions, and so on.<br /><br />You need to get away for a while, do bhajan and think for yourself. Hear a different point of view. Something.<br /><br />Jai Radhe.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-24925732474390674062012-05-12T02:19:08.792-04:002012-05-12T02:19:08.792-04:00(5) The last point I will respond to here, but you...(5) The last point I will respond to here, but you can look at today's blog where I post a dialog with Urmila Devi Dasi. She expresses pious hopes that one day Prabhupad's wishes for women gurus will be realized. Don't hold your breath. And the reasons are several-fold: Sannyasis are wed to a philosophy of male superiority, one that is enhanced by their celibacy. This is a mistaken notion and dangerous because it marginalizes the feminine power which predominates in bhakti. I like Jadurani, and I am sure she will start initiating too. But she too had to become a white widow to gain her status. But if you think that is the way to go, who am I to stop you.<br /><br />By the way, your very Gaudiya Math polemical approach is really, really contrary to the spirit of prema-bhakti. However you claim to be an honest seeker of dialog. I don't see it.<br /><br />Look up the articles on this blog for more information. It is quite easy, There are keywords all along the right hand side. You will find the ones you need, which then require clicking.<br /><br />That is basically all I have time for, my dear prabhu. If you have faith in the Gaudiya Math, that is fine with me. I have no objections. Please go on.<br /><br />In the future, I request that you write to the blog posts where these specific issues are raised and not pile everything up in one place. I have written a great deal on this blog. I repeat myself often enough. I will not repeat myself for you unless you show the minimum courtesy of reading what I have written.<br /><br />Jai Sri Radhe.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-66005663681665534322012-05-12T02:18:40.136-04:002012-05-12T02:18:40.136-04:00First of all, my dear prabhu, it is clear to me th...First of all, my dear prabhu, it is clear to me that you are not reading my links. You say you want dialog. Many of the subjects you have inquired about are discussed at length. I consider this to be in bad faith and frankly I have little patience with it. <br /><br />You ask me to read 20 or more pages of your thoughts and yet you cannot take the time to read my postings on the historical relationship of Bhaktivinoda Thakur to Bipin Bihari Goswami or any of the other things that I have written on this subject.<br /><br />If you truly wish to engage in dialog, I suggest that you show me a modicum of respect as your senior and take each issue up where it is discussed on this blog.<br /><br />(1) Prabhupada's statement. What more can I say? Ask around from Prabhupad's senior disciples. <br /><br />I could just as easily accuse them of having erased the record because it is embarrassing. It is not of sufficient concern to me. <br /><br />I have that memory and it made sufficient impression on me then for me to keep to it. Just like Prabhupada's words, "He [or such people] should be killed" or something to that effect about the "avatar" Guru Maharajji in 1972 or thereabouts. That made an impression and I spent a night in jail because Akshobhya went and told Guru Maharajji's disciples. These things were said, Prabhu, you don't like it. I am sorry. This is the last time I will discuss this point.<br /><br />(2) With regards Bhaktivinoda's Jivani, I have said, look in Shukavak's book. There is a photograph of it on page 10. I suggest you learn Bengali, go to Birnagar, ask the people there to let you see it. Or you can ask Shukavak to see his PDF, which I am sure he will be happy to share. This is the last time I will discuss this point. <br /><br />(3) With regards your justification for your little conspiracy theory. Lalita Prasada Thakur did not, as far as I know, have the same theories on sexuality that I have. <br /><br />He did, though, like all Gaudiya Vaishnavas subscribe to the ideas of phalgu-vairagya, yukta-vairagya, dovetailing, spiritualizing or sacramentalizing the material energy, the spirituality of a devotee's body, the sacred nature of touching and serving a devotee, the value of association and affection for a devotee. He also believed that woman devotees were as good as men devotees, and that renunciation of sex was not a prerequisite for pure devotion. I am sure you do too. <br /><br />Nowhere do I say that the material energy on its own becomes spiritual. I say that it is spiritualized through bhakti. <br /><br />(4) As far as Srila Prabhupada is concerned, he is who he is and he is one of my gurus. How can I deny it? But I made my decision to continue on in my research. I am happy with my decision and very pleased with the results. I can see the handicaps that individual such as yourself face and I am sorry if I sounded a little condescending in my previous post.<br /><br />We all acting to our adhikara. We get gurus according to that adhikara. When our adhikara changes, we are awarded by the Divine Guru, new teachers to help further our advance towards prema.<br /><br />There are controversies about diksha in the Gaudiya sampradaya. Because Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati rejected the diksha customs that Bhaktivinoda Thakur followed, rejected Bipin Bihari Goswami, the respected initiating guru. This is connected, of course, to the traditional manner of executing raganuga bhakti. That is what I was taught by Lalita Prasad Thakur, in the line of Bhaktivinoda Thakur. Which is discussed in detail on this blog. Look it up.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-17352868735091757862012-05-12T00:00:27.841-04:002012-05-12T00:00:27.841-04:00PS
I just noticed that you refer to Sri Lalita Pra...PS<br />I just noticed that you refer to Sri Lalita Prasad as your diksa-guru. When I glossed over the reference to him previously, I assumed you had said 'siksa-guru.'<br />Is your position then that Srila Prabhupada was actually unfit to give you diksa, that you never received the actual holy names of Krsna from him, that he is not qualified to be guru?<br />I certainly understand the premise that one can have so many siksa-gurus - but only one diksa-guru. When Dukhi Krsna das received the name Syamananda from Jiva Goswami, his guru was very upset at the apparent offenses implied by such a thing ... until Jiva Goswami made it clear that he did not at all give diksa to Syamananda, but siksa only, and this new name was an expression of their deep relationship and love ... after which Shyamananda's guru acknowledged that Jiva Goswami was situated on a superior platform to himself, and was in fact a proper teacher of the highest platform of love in the mood of the manjaris.<br />But I am stunned to think that any Gaudiya Vaisnava can imagine that Srila Prabhupada was anything other than an intimate associate of the previous acaryas in this very mood that Mahaprabhu indeed came to freely bestow - how else could he have been so extraordinarily and uniquely empowered to fulfill His vision?Martin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-47533034539038025582012-05-11T23:45:03.457-04:002012-05-11T23:45:03.457-04:009) And around we go …
If you were sincere to find...9) And around we go …<br /><br />If you were sincere to find out about the reality of Srila Prabhupada’s actual attitude towards his many spiritual daughters, you would have spoken to such personalities as M.Jamuna and M.Jadurani – hardly weak pushovers for male chauvinism to have its wicked way with them! If your motive is not so much to see things clearly, but merely ‘prove’ your won crucial bias, then you will no doubt harp on all the garbage done ‘in the name of’ ISKCON or Vedic culture according to the distortions of various neophytes and artificial ‘renunciates.’ I already know that by submitting myself to a hospital situation I will be surrounded by other sick people … but they aren’t why I submit myself … my interest in the doctor who is giving treatment.<br /><br />Meanwhile, I have seen and heard a perfectly wonderful loving equality offered by my own Guru Maharaj, Srila Narayan Goswami, to all, regardless of material differences. And my wife, who I dare say is far more concerned and informed about feminism and rights of minorities than you, being an active professor of communication with her focus on Diversity and Inclusion, and who has also never been a member of ISKCON and much regards herself as a free thinker, has no doubts as to the legitimacy of our Guru’s profound and non-discriminating love and affection, in keeping with the highest standards of spiritual realization.<br /><br />“In my opinion, the IGM (ISKCON-Gaudiya Math) is obsessed and pervaded by an anti-love, anti-woman, sannyasa model, and so they look at Radha-Shyamasundar on the altar and don't see them in themselves or the people around them.” I understand why you would like this to be true, as it certainly justifies a choice to do your own independent self-authorised thing … but it simply doesn’t match reality. Oh sure there are plenty of individual examples, if you want to look for those. It really all depends on what you are looking for, on what your motive is. Once more, as Anais Nin so excellently stated: “We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.” You may wonder who you are being that you have the vision you do.”<br /><br />Radhe Radhe, <br /><br />Narasingha dasMartin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-39995957528886887192012-05-11T23:44:11.765-04:002012-05-11T23:44:11.765-04:008) And around we go …
I can assure you that I hav...8) And around we go …<br /><br />I can assure you that I have already heard or myself asked these questions you are raising, and have been very satisfied, intellectually also, with the answers our Bhakti-Vedantic tradition yields. But I came from a place of already being quite disillusioned, frustrated and disappointed with what I saw and where I had been looking from previously. And that is the place to start: as you say - Start with yourself first and not with your critic<br /><br />Does the celibacy model or sannyasa model help or hinder social development? What is the evidence in ISKCON? In India, in the Gaudiya Math? What does the marginalization of women that this model implies augur for this community or any future community, especially in view of changing norms of femininity in the world? More importantly, how does this relate to Radha-Krishna as the symbols of the highest truth in Gaudiya Vaishnavism? How do discoveries in depth psychology about archetypes and other kinds of complex formation in the psyche help us to explain the nature of symbol and myth?<br /><br />Celibacy and sannyasa are not for everyone, especially in kali-yuga. But the leaders of society must be goswamis – how can they lead society if they are themselves servants of their own uncontrolled selfish instincts? Meanwhile, such a magnificent legacy of spiritual instruction and revelations have been given us by those great souls who have indeed fully surpassed identification with the illusion that we are still so very gripped by that it seems you cannot even countenance the possibility of anyone’s actually being entirely free for its grip!<br /><br />I don’t look to ISKCON as my example – I recognize that Srila Prabupada had a few years in which to sow the seeds of a spiritual revolution, and made so many compromises for the sake of getting as much started as possible. I am sure he was well aware of the eagerness with which the most neophyte and unpurifed ego-driven souls would embrace the possibility of social distinction (within their own cultural sub-group) as afforded by sannyasa … and thus perform so many austerities for the sake of achieving such … and although so many fell back to … well, perhaps a more honest and clear outer expression of their internal state … still, their activities performed in devotion and love to Guru and Krsna stand apart, creating a wonderful deposit of sukriti to benefit their future development even though their karma is unfolding its various twists and turns in the moment.<br /><br />As for the Gaudiya Math – my experience is of so many great souls who had indeed performed and maintained such austerities since youth. You may care to only note those who ‘prove’ what you wish to focus on – but my taste is to focus on those who have inspired me, such as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj, Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Swami Maharaj, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami Maharaj, Srila BV Puri Goswami Maharaj, Srila Bhakti Daitya Madhava Maharaj, Sri Bhakti Vallabha Tirtha Maharaj … <br /> <br />Meanwhile, in regards to the ladies –Martin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-53596446381057939102012-05-11T23:43:25.391-04:002012-05-11T23:43:25.391-04:007) And around we go …
If God is lacking that, the...7) And around we go …<br /><br />If God is lacking that, then that does not exist, even in imagination. The limitations you seem to be wanting to impose on God are but your own – it seems you use your own experience and abilities as the means to determine what is real, possible, ‘rational’ – a la ‘Mr Frog.’ I do not hold that my experience or understandings, or those of any other limited conditioned souls are the ‘measure of all things’ or the arbiter of truth. <br /><br />“And what is myth anyway? Are you capable of reading the Puranic and epic texts without saying to yourself, "These are just stories"? Ten-headed demons, thousand-armed demons, etc. These are to be taken literally? Where do you stop, brother? When will the challenge to your modern intelligence become too great?”<br /><br />I do not grant my intelligence absolute jurisdiction especially in regards to the inconceivable nature of the Supreme, and His unlimited potencies. God is creating so many universes, by just a fraction of His potencies … in a moment, He can destroy everything, and in the next, create all again … what is the potency of my intelligence (modern or otherwise) in relation to this?As the senses are meant to be ruled by the mind, and the mind by the intelligence, so is the intelligence meant to be submissive to the soul, and the soul in turn is serving the self-realized intimate associates of the Supreme.<br /><br />So I have no problem taking all these stories literally, of believing there is ‘far more in heaven and earth Horatio than your philosophy ever dreamed of.’ Nor does this mean I consider that anyone’s imagination is a good source of valid understanding of the nature of reality … as I have previously written, the actual fact is that God is. His ‘opinion’ births reality as it is. He is authority, and His authority is real and absolute. Therefore the very principle of authority itself is unavoidable. No-one can deny this principle ( or if they do, by what authority do they do so!). Our freedom is to recognize His authority or to try to claim it for ourselves, that’s all. I do not accept the authority of any conditioned soul, either myself or you or however many Christian speculators and interpreters of the teachings of a pure devotee or any number of academics and other mundane observers each convinced that actually, their own limited mortal meanderings are of absolute value.<br /><br />If you want to know the truth, as Krsna states so elegantly, approach one who is himself directly perceiving the truth. Approach such a one in a mood of humble submission and service – then he can indeed give you that which he himself possesses. Humble submission does not at all mean suspending one’s own freedom for intelligent reflection. Rather, it means that by such engagement you have come to recognize the limits of your own abilities, and the possibility that someone else may have actually achieved the very enlightenment you have ever sought for yourself … then place your intelligence at the disposal of your own soul, and place your very self at the disposal of such a self-realized acarya. This is the process of enlightenment, my brother, not to simply argue on the basis, and therefore for, your unenlightened position of relative ignorance. I do not at all suggest you suspend your intelligence, nor do I think you really believe I have suspended mine … for I certainly ‘make you work hard’ although, I would suggest, so far not to any powerful effect. But instead of using your intelligence to challenge Guru and Shastra, why not use it to understand how it is true, and transcendentally so.<br /><br />Your “for God's sakes, stop with the "I must follow blindly and anyone who doesn't is a fool and doomed for not adhering to the teachings of the great perfected souls." is but a straw man, irrelevant to who I am, or what I say. My essays to you have been filled with logic and argument, and no dispassionate observer would call them ‘blind’ or thoughtless following.Martin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-76454011613913904772012-05-11T23:42:42.741-04:002012-05-11T23:42:42.741-04:006) And around we go …
Perhaps this is the greates...6) And around we go …<br /><br />Perhaps this is the greatest difficulty I am finding in a dialog between us – I am assuming your agreement with the basics of spiritual science, but it seems that your sense of already ‘knowing’ them keeps them distant from your actual awareness. <br /><br />But here’s the bottom line: you, me, we … are ‘in’ as in under the grips/covers/clouds of maya … ‘sludge.’ The only way out is through the grace of one who is outside of the sludge’s influence. Our need is to understand what are the qualities of such a person, how do they behave … and then surrender. And be continually alert that when we look towards such a person, or towards anything else, because our vision is sludge-colored, we will still see sludge everywhere. Therefore we are told to listen to his vision to guide us. But we don’t need a guru who is covered in his own sludge!<br /><br />Our egos don’t want to surrender – they are always looking for the ‘out-clause’ – hence you are eager to embrace imagined failings of Srila Prabhupada that you reveal in statements alluding to ‘abominable’ and ‘cringe-making’ … but without presenting any actual evidence, merely allusions and scorn (eg your reference to BG 4.1 purport, what, because he dares to challenge your own vision?). So you have reduced guru to an ordinary man, complete with the failings of any other conditioned soul, though perhaps, relatively speaking, not quite so many, or quite so strong …<br /><br />So there you have the essence of your philosophy, as far as authority is concerned – that the guru is but an ordinary and materially-flawed man, after all. Wonderful - now you don’t need to surrender, but instead can present yourself (to yourself and to those who have the same stuff going on inside them) as a ‘progressive thinker.’ A double-score for you: 1) Guru is ordinary, therefore I don’t need to surrender, I can pick and choose whatever appeals to me, I can resume my post as the authority in my life; and 2) Guru us ordinary, like me ... so I too can be a Guru, and present myself as Guru in others’ lives too (I noticed that is something you are happy to cite Srila Prabhupada’s words in regards to your situation). <br /><br />So this is the reason why you and another sahajiya would be eager to present material failings in the life of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. The trouble is, that you have actually presented no defense at all to the arguments raised here – unless repeated ‘ad hominem’ digs like ‘trogladytes like yourself,’ ‘stop following like a blind puppy and think for yourself,’ ‘obsessed and pervaded by an anti-love anti-woman sentiment’ count as actual substantive arguments? And of course the Thakur himself has clearly condemned the entire sahajiya point of view, though you continue to hold your hand aloft in defiant ‘scissors mode’ as you fail to present anything at all to actually oppose the flood of orthodox argument and reasoning that is available to resist the sahajiya combining of material conditioning and spiritual principles..<br /><br />OK – so now in regards to the specific ‘mythology’ claim. Sir Walter Raleigh wrote in the introduction to his ‘A History of the World’ something along the lines of, ‘as human beings, we may identify, label, manipulate, imitate, utilize … so many things … but we can actually create nothing at all.’ We can create nothing at all. If I make up a word that doesn’t fit an already existing concept or set of principles, it has no meaning. We don’t actually give meaning – we simply recognize and distort the meaning that is already there according to the ‘meanings’ and self-indulgent intentions given by our conditional filters. <br /><br />There can be no fake dollar bill unless there is a real one. So our ability to imagine super-powers and heroes and everything else that modern man happily consigns to the ‘supernatural myth’ file … is based on what reality, exactly?Martin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-10270636199385489592012-05-11T22:23:08.197-04:002012-05-11T22:23:08.197-04:005) And around we go …
It is irrelevant whether B...5) And around we go …<br /> <br />It is irrelevant whether Bhagavad-gita or Biblical literalism or a belief in Grandfather Eagle or anything else, is ‘right’ or ‘wrong.’ Evolution is wrong because it is full of false assumptions, logic and conclusions (and if you like, I can happily send you a few arguments I have raised with a number of scientists, to which I have not heard a single meaningful counter-argument). And if all we are left with at the end of that is an awareness of uncertainty, that we don’t have any good answers, then I think that is not a bad thing at all … dancing with uncertainty is very good training<br /><br />Similarly, Bhagavad-gita isn’t true because evolution isn’t! We have to examine the evidence for transcendental sources of transcendental information on its own account – and I address the basics of that later in this series. <br /><br />(By the way, since a couple of your readers brought up Srila Prabhupada’s comment regarding the comparative sizes of men’s and women’s brains as ‘evidence’ of his fallibility … you might be interested to google this very subject. It seems Srila Prabhupada wasn’t contradicting verified scientific observations in this regard after all! – and, out of interest, whales and elephants have bigger brains than humans … so what all this may mean is something else, but Srila Prabhupada’s statement regarding men’s brains being bigger than women’s is completely and scientifically verifiably true)<br /><br />I remember when I first read Krsna book, many years before I became a Krsna devotee. I thought it was totally far-out – but I never dismissed it as ‘mythology’ – I didn’t see why it couldn’t be true. I certainly hoped that the narrow-minded little society I lived inside of did not have a monopoly in regards to understanding what the ‘real world’ is!<br /><br />How can we know what the truth actually is, when our own mind and senses clearly aren’t qualified? We can’t see that which is ‘sludge-free’ when our tool for looking is sludge! The whole Vedic paradigm is based on seeing through hearing from properly qualified authority – I am so surprised to hear your outburst in regards to how ridiculous these descriptions and conceptions are in relation to your own perspective, reasoning and experience. Why would you consider your own perception, your own completely conditioned and relative point of reference, to be the actual measure to determine what is not only true, but transcendentally so?<br /><br />Regardless of how we might recognize a properly qualified authority, this is the first step, to develop some humility and in fact a sense of hopelessness in regards to the actuality of our position. But if instead we are so sure of the veracity of our conditioned perspective that we consider ourselves fit to mock the revelations of Guru-Sadhu-Sastra as being not even worthy of consideration in their utter failure to incorporate our own thought-processes and experiences … <br /><br />It seems to me that you have adopted the philosophy of ‘ardha-kukuti-nyaya’ – like the chicken-farmer who cut the heads off his chickens so as not to waste money on the head end that was simply costing him money, and instead just keep the egg-laying end. You are accepting and rejecting everything on the basis of your materially compromised intelligence and impure egoistic motivations … which is a recipe to ensure your continued entrapment within karma.<br /><br />Nor are we meant to abandon our intelligence and simply accept whichever ‘authority’ is put forward inside our particular culture or by chance appears along our paths – we are meant to use our God-given discrimination to become clear as to how to recognize a legitimate spiritual authority, beginning with simple philosophical understanding that we are not the body and so the proper teacher of such knowledge is him/herself clearly not situated in bodily consciousness, has no truck with seeking to find pleasure in terms of the conditioned senses meeting their particular set of objects, according to the specific nature of the body they inhabit … etc., back to spiritual science 101.Martin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-69770879492739103602012-05-11T22:20:07.924-04:002012-05-11T22:20:07.924-04:004) And around we go …
In the actual absence of an...4) And around we go …<br /><br />In the actual absence of any real intellectual substance or supporting evidence to your claims, I find most of your statements basically variations on the theme you displayed when you wrote so emphatically that you ‘strongly disagree’ (and ‘fundamentally’ so) with Srila Bhaktivinode’s refutation of sahajiya philosophy and behaviour – all you actually said is ‘I disagree, because I do, and because it contradicts what I have already given myself to.’ That is merely emotional, sentimental, conditional partiality … it carries no weight whatsoever in any enquiry into truth, regardless of how ‘strongly’ you feel that way. All you are saying is that while your mind and perhaps senses also are very ‘strong,’ you are not actually revealing any strength of intelligence, as per your own statement as quoted above. <br /><br />Then you make so many statements that surprise me with the lack of understanding of the basic principles of philosophy that Srila Prabhupada revealed. Having said this, I must give some examples or I would myself be guilty of an unsupported ‘ad hominem’ tactic. <br /><br />But I’ll jump ahead first so as to relate these points to how you answered, and indeed rephrased, my question regarding your faith in Srila Prabhupada as a self-realized acarya. I read your article – and for all your claims to remember Srila Prabupada every day and gratefully acknowledge all his gifts, you actually don’t accept him as guru, because you regularly dismiss so many of his essential teachings as false, absurd, in opposition to progress and common sense … just to take two, a) you self-assuredly mock the literal acceptance of the itihasas and puranas replete with so many extraordinary (by kali-yuga human standards) personalities and activities as all ‘mythology,’ following which you claim Radha-and Krsna as a ‘living reality’ for you – reading between the lines, I think you are referring to what you understand Radha-Krsna to symbolize, as it seems you discount the actual tales of Their divine lilas as but symbolism and mythology … all of which is in utter contradiction with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, thus giving the lie to your simultaneous claim of faith or allegiance or whatever else in his regard.<br /><br />And then b), your mocking dismissal of the stand against evolutionary theory that Michael Cremo represents, but which was entirely inspired and directed by Srila Prabhupada. This is in and of itself a very involved subject – but I have personally engaged in discussion and argument with many scientists, and although they are very rarely open to even the possibility of changing their stance, I have personally found them utterly unable to actually counter the many arguments we can raise, and challenges we can make. <br /><br />Here’s the thing regarding evolution, Bhagavad-gita, etc. Christian Creationists create a false limited choice of ‘either the Bible or Evolution’ whereby ‘since this and that aspect of evolutionary theory is wrong, therefore the bible is true. But that is not applicable here. <br /><br />There are two distinct proposals: firstly, that evolutionary ‘theory’ lacks anything that remotely resembles scientific veracity – there is no observation, no experiment, of any previously unseen organ or life-form arising spontaneously from any distinct and already-existing one. Nor is there any theory that can even describe the possible general stages of interim development (never mind provide even a vague description of the mechanisms that would promote such an event) – eg, the stages of development between a straight bone and the ‘evolution’ of a joint, or from a scale to a feather, or to the human eye (to quote Darwin’s own bugbear) … especially when considering that the essential criterion is that each intermittent stage must itself be fully functioning and indeed conferring a survival advantage to the ‘evolving’ host.Martin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-2475364065378109372012-05-11T22:19:08.441-04:002012-05-11T22:19:08.441-04:003B) And around we go …
I think perhaps your most ...3B) And around we go …<br /><br />I think perhaps your most honest statement was when you mockingly admitted that ‘you were defeated, can I go home now’? You were using sarcasm to deflect the actual reality of that statement – a reality established to date by your inability thus far to actually respond to or rebut a single argument I have made. You regularly mock me for my implied weakness of intellect that I am stuck within such limited thought-patterns and unable to think ‘progressively’ – and yet you have shown yourself incapable of making any substantial response! The only defense of your position I have seen to date is a)your mockery and scornful dismissal of your ‘opposition’ and b) your ‘strong disagreement’ with the same. And as I have stated, such is entirely impotent in a truly philosophical and intellectual arena.<br /><br />You have written so very much in your blogs – so the mocking cavalier attitude your previous (‘I am defeated’) pose attempted is false. Unless you can show me otherwise, I must consider that your failure to actually offer any philosophically strong (as appear to merely strength of emotional prejudice) response is because you can’t. Then the question is, so why continue to dig in to an untenable position? Isn’t that the very opposite of ‘progressive thought?” Isn’t that the very essence of ‘fundamentalism,’ of unwavering commitment to a fixed position, regardless of any argument or evidence to the contrary?<br /><br />What happened to ‘impartial assessing evidence’ and ‘deducing theories that fit, and, most relevant here ‘accounting for and deling with things that don’t?’Martin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-79470418221799555222012-05-11T22:18:32.614-04:002012-05-11T22:18:32.614-04:003A) And around we go …
Meanwhile, such an idea co...3A) And around we go …<br /><br />Meanwhile, such an idea completely contradicts the teachings of the Thakur (as in the paragraphs I shared with you previously), and also of Srila Rupa Goswami and indeed all the Gaudiya acaryas following him; and also brazenly mocks Sri Krsna’s own teachings and example in reference to the Bhagavad-gita verse regarding how the masses of people follow the example of the leader, implying that the leaders, especially spiritual leaders, must themselves be exemplary examples of freedom from the modes of nature and from the urges of the material senses to engage with material sense-objects, and ceaseless and unmotivated (ahaitukt apratihata) absorption in devotional service … so that Krsna also explains that is why He Himself acts in so many ways that He actually has no need to do on His own account.<br /><br />And by the way, your only response to date in regards to the Thakur’s statements is that you ‘strongly disagree’ – well of course you do! But so what! Someone’s mere pleasure or displeasure is hardly authoritative! Everyone ‘strongly’ agrees with whatever supports their own position and disagrees with whatever challenges the same. The question is, is that all? Or do they have some objective and profound philosophical or reasonable basis for their opinion? Or are their opinions merely the advance-guard for their ultimate purpose of gratifying their senses and desires?<br /><br />What you wrote in your 3rd section, beginning with your dismissing my ability to ‘think progressively’ is of primarily an emotional and accusatory or ‘ad hominem’ flavor, and lacks sufficient rational argument to respond to in that vein – and I do not care to engage in the same tone. Suffice it to say that for all my ‘inability to think progressively’ I have managed to raise many points you thus far have entirely failed to refute. You have tried to dismiss them with scorn, but without any substantial philosophical or logical argument, that is all merely bluff, kind of like when a possum bares its teeth and hisses at predators, though it has little actual defensive strength of its own.<br /><br />You say that: “Progressive thought means being able to assess evidence impartially and deducing from that evidence theories that fit. When things don't fit, then you have to account for and deal with them. But one word of advice:.”<br /><br />So my immediate response (and continuing from the ‘post’ immediately preceding this one) is that you should carefully consider what you just wrote here. I see little evidence of your willingness to assess evidence impartially – you occur to me as being extremely partial to your already-existng point of view, to the point that you have thus far failed to display the objective integrity essential to any philosophical debate. <br /><br />I refer to the process of first acknowledging the various specific arguments challenging your own assertions and beliefs and then responding in a purely reason-based (as distinct from the modern ‘yellow-journalism’ technique of mocking dismissal of the character or intelligence or ‘though-patterns’ whatever else of the opposing party, without substantiating any such claim or actually daring to engage in the arena of genuine philosophical argument about the actual subject matter at hand. This may be entertaining to an unqualified audience but lacks any relevance to a philosophical discussion).Martin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-87260876068392099922012-05-11T22:15:28.786-04:002012-05-11T22:15:28.786-04:002) And around we go …
So … you have made a specif...2) And around we go …<br /><br />So … you have made a specific claim regarding an ‘abominable’ statement made by Srila Prabhupada. I have asked for evidence of such, and you have been unable to provide any. Please forgive me, but your responses to this specific question, which are but alluding to evidence that you claim is somewhere, only you are not sure where, you cannot provide it … is akin to the evolutionists’ ‘missing link’ argument. It is only referred to as ‘missing’ because no-one has ever seen it! It is a very clever piece of Orwellian disingenuity to cover up the simple fact that it does not exist!<br /><br />My request is that you take such comments off the table, unless you can properly substantiate them – personally I am hurt to hear such unfounded (until and unless you provide clear evidence to the contrary) criticism of someone I have so much love and respect and trust for. To be honest with you, such a response occurs to me as a kind of immature whining, kind of like a child trying to justify why he doesn’t want to do what Daddy says, and how unfair he is, and who does he think he is anyway … I am trying to give you honest feedback, not to offend you. After all, it is very hard for us to be objective in regards to ourselves – we are easily fooled by all the beliefs and understandings we have, that fly high in our idealistic visions, and that keep us from really seeing how we are in life, how we actually relate to and treat others, how much actual consciousness of yoga, of love and affection for Krsna and all that is His, we have truly attained, as distinct from any amount of intellectual ‘understanding’ we may have picked up …<br /><br />Regarding “With regards the Jivani, are you suggesting that Lalita Prasad edited his father's autobiography to make it look like he ate meat? What on God's earth would his purpose have been?” I actually addressed this previously, in regards to what I understand sahajiya philosophy is proposing in general. Namely, that the conditioned soul can interact with the spiritual platform through his or her conditioned senses, that s/he can ‘know’ his or her spiritual identity … which is to say, that the inferior energy (namely the material mind in conjunction with the false ego) can dominate the superior energy, in the form of one’s swarupa. Such also implies a confusion between the activity of the material mind and intelligence, which is an expression of lust, ie of trying to control and to be the enjoyer/controller etc., with the actual consciousness of the self, as implied by the term ‘(self-)realization,’ which is itself a state of service, devoid of any desire for results for oneself, which are all various flavors of contaminants or obstacles on the path of pure bhakti, in the form of karma-mishri or jnana-mishri (ie sensual attainments, yoga-siddhis, intellectual attainments or ‘knowledge’ up to the very point of liberation in the sense of attaining Brahman …) And all of this is explained in detail in various of Srila Bhkativinode Thakur’s writings, especially Jaiva-Dharma.<br /><br />Having stated this, then I can see two intimately connected reasons for such editing of the Thakur’s actual story. If it could be shown that the Thakur could simultaneously engage in gross sense-gratification under the influence of tastes dominated by the lower modes of material nature, while penning works of transcendental genius and beauty … then this would afford a wonderful example of the sahajiya philosophy in action – that one can indeed directly serve and realize and interact with the Supreme even though one’s mind and senses are not yet fully controlled or purified … and that one can indeed be Guru without actually being a goswami (in the literal sense, as in the vaco-vegam verse of Srila Rupa Goswami’s Upadeshamritam).Martin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-85430073680074261492012-05-11T22:14:27.787-04:002012-05-11T22:14:27.787-04:001) And around we go …
As I pointed out previously...1) And around we go …<br /><br />As I pointed out previously, anyone can claim anything – but for a claim to be accepted as being of actual substance, and so fit for affecting outlook or action, it must be supported by actual evidence. And contrary to your peculiar challenge, no, it is not up to the person questioning a claim to provide evidence that said claim is false, it is up to the person making the claim to prove that it is true. I don’t think this really requires explanation (or indeed, anyone could claim anything, unchecked!) – or, perhaps check with any lawyer, or any educator in any field at all, whether scientific, historical, religious, health-oriented or whatever … and run your suggestion by them in regards to where the actual burden of proof lies.<br /><br />I think the danger we all run into here is the one that you have yourself observed, as in ‘fundamentalism.’ My thought on this phenomenon is that it is universal, and refers to an ‘a priori’ commitment to any given position, regardless of what school of thought it may be attached to. <br /><br />I would suggest that we are all living in this world of duality, pulled by a simultaneous and often contradictory urge to both ‘dig in’ and strengthen our roots while to also grow up towards the sky, and away from what is familiar, from whichever step on the ladder we last ascended. You know, the same step that was once a step up from a less enlightened point of temporary ‘rest’ and material identification swiftly becomes our next point of stoppage, that by our attachment to it represents an obstacle to our continuing to actually ascend. <br /><br />The inherent danger is that this attachment then defines and controls how we use whatever tools may be at our disposal, such as our ability to reason, our education and academic qualifications and whatever else. In fact, what we could say is that this attachment, which is displayed by our particular biases and agendas and so on, is actually using us. As a result, we are less inclined towards open-minded objective philosophical dialogue, and more likely to engage in debate marked by a combination of offensiveness and defensiveness that is intended but to fortify our original position. It is that attachment that opposes the very possibility of our changing direction, which is actually the opportunity of philosophical discussion and argument … our egos suggest that to ‘change’ is to admit that we (ie our egos) were wrong. But I don’t believe that at all – I have changed so many times in my life, I have changed my position, and I am clear that each position is a step towards the next, and the overall direction has been towards growth and towards developing my relationship with the Supreme, Whom I now understand to be Radha-Krsna. And I am grateful for all of it.<br /><br />So I am interested to dialog with you, prabhu, because it is clear that you yourself have been willing to make dramatic changes, and separate yourself from at least one group within which your identity was strongly identified, and at the risk of so much social isolation and negative judgment. So one of my interests in discussing with you was to expand my philosophical understanding, either to deepen what I currently have, or to replace it, where appropriate, with something superior. And in such an exercise I will always offer my strongest doubts, because I am confident that the Truth can always overcome ignorance … thus one of the qualifications of Guru is that he can vanquish all doubts of the sincere enquirer after Truth.Martin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-82602885035156592832012-05-07T01:58:24.092-04:002012-05-07T01:58:24.092-04:00Do I believe in Srila Prabhupada?
You are making ...<a href="http://jagadanandadas.blogspot.com/2011/09/do-i-believe-in-srila-prabhupada.html" rel="nofollow">Do I believe in Srila Prabhupada?</a><br /><br />You are making me work too much, Narasingha. This article may help. I repeated some of it here. But I just realized you did not follow my original link to Bhaktivinoda Thakur's statement about progressive thought.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-27424647663090499492012-05-07T01:24:25.773-04:002012-05-07T01:24:25.773-04:00I made a few small changes and posted to Facebook....I made a few small changes and posted to <a href="http://www.facebook.com/notes/jagadananda-das/progressive-thought/10150877945440983" rel="nofollow">Facebook.</a>Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-22261677350782264302012-05-07T00:57:17.963-04:002012-05-07T00:57:17.963-04:00That was a bit heavier than I usually get, but I g...That was a bit heavier than I usually get, but I guess I am become more strident in my old age. My apologies.<br /><br />Sri Radhe Shyam.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-5704913261889084022012-05-06T23:58:15.594-04:002012-05-06T23:58:15.594-04:00(LAST) You are worried about a conspiracy by Lalit...(LAST) You are worried about a conspiracy by Lalita Prasad Thakur to make his father and diksha guru into a meat eater for some obscure reason, and at the same time you believe in all manner of fabulous creatures as literal truths? Do you intend to be the Orly Taitz of Bhaktivinoda Thakur's autobiography because some Gaudiya Math conspiracy theorist does not like its contents?<br /><br />Grow up and come back when you start using your intelligence progressively. This is, in fact, what Krishna is talking about in the Bhagavad-gita: Give up all religiosity and surrender to me. Stop following like a blind puppy and start thinking for yourself. God is within you as the intelligence. <b>There is no fear.</b><br /><br />But for God's sakes, stop with the "I must follow blindly and anyone who doesn't is a fool and doomed for not adhering to the teachings of the great perfected souls."<br /><br />As a matter of fact, I believe Rupa Goswami had great insight. And I still feed off the remnants of Rupa Goswami's thought every day, taking inspiration from his poetry, his rasa theory, etc., through which Radha and Krishna have become a <b>living reality</b> for me. My admiration for him is based in the fact that he gives me something to think about and not just historical dogmas to swallow undigested. Shravanam, mananam, nididhyasanam, darshanam. <br /><br />In my opinion, the IGM (ISKCON-Gaudiya Math) is obsessed and pervaded by an anti-love, anti-woman, sannyasa model, and so they look at Radha-Shyamasundar on the altar and don't see them in themselves or the people around them. What they see is a symbol of a sectarian society, an institution that needs to be defended by dogmatic rigidity. They look at Radha Krishna and what they see is the Gaudiya Math. And they defend their institution by recourse to false argumentation and pretensions of fidelity to the disciplic succession! (And what would Freud have said of the sannyasi's "tridanda"!)<br /><br />IGM is serving its purpose, but it seems that in the West at least the limits of their achievements have already been reached, to the point now that they are slowly disintegrating before our very eyes. And only troglodytes like yourself are remaining to attack "progressive thought" because you don't understand the concept even when Bhaktivinoda Thakur clearly states it for you.<br /><br />You must look at teachings objectively. Not just in the beginning, but again and again. You must sift through them, again and again until you find the essence. <b><i>Be a sāragrāhī</i></b>, as the Thakur said, not a <i>bhāravāhī</i>, "a carrier of the burden" of an infinite number of jots and tittles.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-45218626482170276942012-05-06T23:48:18.736-04:002012-05-06T23:48:18.736-04:00(3) As to progressive thought. This is obviously t...(3) As to progressive thought. This is obviously the biggest issue for you as clearly you only know how to think in certain patterns based on what you have heard from your arbitrarily chosen authoritative sources. After all, a Muslim or Christian has his authoritative sources and they fight about it. And there are plenty of other sects with their own divine revelations. What make you think you are so special? Looked at objectively, it is hard to see the difference. <br /><br />If anything, Hindu mythology, if thought of as literal truth looks a damned sight more incredible than either of those two. Unless you can look at Hindu mythology in a different way, it is eventually going to leave you high and dry. That is why I refered to the Shadow. You repress your disbelief (not just suspending, but repressing) and then that eventually will cause psychic troubles. If you don’t believe me, just watch. Look at all the damn trouble “foolish readers” have caused in the world. They have destroyed the good name of religion itself.<br /><br />I won't deny you are clever. Like Cremo. At least you are capable of writing coherently. But when you start from the premise that a particular set of statements is true -- for whatever reason -- and your consequent argument is based entirely on defending those premises at all costs, deliberately using selective evidence, and refusing to see the consequences of your dogmatic rigidity on your own psyche and your community, i.e., the failures of your belief system, you are arguing in bad faith. <br /><br />Progressive thought means being able to assess evidence impartially and deducing from that evidence theories that fit. When things don't fit, then you have to account for and deal with them. But one word of advice: Start with yourself first and not with your critic. Cremo wants to replace evolution with what exactly? The Bhagavata? Are you kidding me! Visvasvan spoke to Manu. Go read Prabhupada’s purport to Gita 4.1 and ask yourself, does this really work for me? <br /><br />But more to the point. Does the celibacy model or sannyasa model help or hinder social development? What is the evidence in ISKCON? In India, in the Gaudiya Math? What does the marginalization of women that this model implies augur for this community or any future community, especially in view of changing norms of femininity in the world? More importantly, how does this relate to Radha-Krishna as the symbols of the highest truth in Gaudiya Vaishnavism? How do discoveries in depth psychology about archetypes and other kinds of complex formation in the psyche help us to explain the nature of symbol and myth?<br /><br />And what is myth anyway? Are you capable of reading the Puranic and epic texts without saying to yourself, "These are just stories"? Ten-headed demons, thousand-armed demons, etc. These are to be taken literally? Where do you stop, brother? When will the challenge to your <i>modern</i> intelligence become too great?<br /><br />There is a great body of literature now on myth and symbol -- read Eliade, Tillich, Jung -- and then form your own conclusions. But don't just try to pretend that you live in a pre-modern civilization.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-69186186289886303402012-05-06T21:35:30.409-04:002012-05-06T21:35:30.409-04:00(1) Prabhupada said it. I don't know if it is ...(1) Prabhupada said it. I don't know if it is in the record. I looked around and could only find one quote from a conversation, Bhagavan Das: "In the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, you say that even the atomic bombs can be used in Krishna's service." But the ensuing conversation does not mirror what I remember, which was, "Chant Hare Krishna or else bomb." If you ask old-time ISKCON people who were around, they may be able to confirm. It was quite well-known at the time.<br /><br />But if you don't like that one, it is easy to find plenty of cringe worthy material in the VedaBase.<br /><br />(2) With regards the Jivani, are you suggesting that Lalita Prasad edited his father's autobiography to make it look like he ate meat? What on God's earth would his purpose have been?<br /><br />I have seen this MS with my own eyes, and if I believe Shukavak has a photo of the first page in his book. He definitely studied it first hand. I may have the opportunity to go to Birnagar later this summer and I think it may be possible to check it out then. I am personally satisfied that the document is genuine. The GM printed segments of it even during Saraswati Thakur's lifetime. So it seems they accepted it as genuine.<br /><br />Ask yourself the question: Who is served by denying the genuine relation of Bhaktivinoda Thakur to Bipin Bihari Goswami? That is what this is all about. <br /><br />You tell me that I am a scholar and that I should provide you with proof. Don't you think the onus is on you to prove it false?Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-30668483508155076922012-05-05T19:36:04.225-04:002012-05-05T19:36:04.225-04:00Jagat-ji
You are a scholar - therefore I expect y...Jagat-ji<br /><br />You are a scholar - therefore I expect you to provide verifiable cites for your claims.<br /><br />Previously I asked you to kindly provide specific references to substantiate your claim:<br />"I found Prabhupada's statement that one could use the atomic bomb to coerce people's adherence to Krishna consciousness so abhorrent. Pluralism allowed KC to enter a free society and find adherents, who were then ready to threaten their hosts with death if they did not convert also, believe or not?"<br /><br />But the only response you gave was: <br />"I don't think I distort Prabhupada. I joined ISKCON in 1970 and there was stuff "on the record" and off."<br /><br />I have also asked you to offer objective proof that the letter 'svakhilita-jivani' Sri Lalita Prasad claims was sent to him by his father, the illustrious Bhaktivinode Thakur, in which the Thakur apparently reveals so many otherwise unheard of details of his earlier life, including a habit of eating meat. I have heard from elsewhere that the original letter Srila Lalita Prsad received was altered and edited by him ... so I think it is of the utmost necessity, if you are going to offer its contents as being authoritative, for you to be able to prove that the letter was indeed original and unedited and clearly written in the Thakur's own handwriting, as yopu claim when you say:<br />"Well since there is a handwritten manuscript in Bhaktivinoda Thakur's own handwriting, it seems reasonable to think he wrote it."<br /><br />Otherwise, without such properly acceptable backing, all you are doing is repeating hearsay, which is unacceptable in any credible forum, be it academic or legal or spiritual.<br /><br />Similarly, to respond to may many arguments against sahajiya teachings with merely an expression of frustration and sarcasm as in:<br />"Am I defeated yet? Can I go home?" <br />is also unbecoming either a scholar or a spiritualist, especially one who has for so many years been revealing his penchant for philosophical argument and debate (as this blog-site clearly evidences).<br />Nor would anyone ever accept as a meaningful rebuttal any claim, without a drop of supporting argument, your claim that:<br />"You are wrong. I am not interested in debate and argument."<br /><br />I am wrong in so many ways - but that is irrelevant - what are the faults in the many arguments I have presented in what I had hoped to be a philosophical discussion to better reveal truth? <br /><br />Meanwhile, I doubt anyone who has read your posts will accept you to be disinterested in debate and argument. I have read here and there in your site, and have read almost nothing in simple direct glorification of the beautiful features of Sri Sri Radha Krsna and Their pastimes ... rather, almost all I have read here has been in a spirit of contention with most all other flavors of spiritual practice (especially if they happen to be Gaudiya Math related), and appreciative of even atheists if their words can lend support for your own criticisms of all you label as 'fundamentalists.'<br /><br />Meanwhile I await with interest your refutation of the words of Srila Bhaktivinode, whom you acknowledge as also being your Guruvarga, in regards to his unequivocal denunciation of sahajiya.<br /><br />vaisnava-sevabhilasi<br /><br />Narasingha dasMartin Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15831327204999733076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-74380198326251452592012-05-04T20:39:14.583-04:002012-05-04T20:39:14.583-04:00With regards to the Sahajiya comments, I will deal...With regards to the Sahajiya comments, I will deal with them in a separate post in due time.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.com