tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post7881654932314429131..comments2024-03-26T13:06:41.178-04:00Comments on Jagat: Bhagavad-gītā and the BabajisJagadananda Dashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-87066102697359566632007-10-11T20:19:00.000-04:002007-10-11T20:19:00.000-04:00I rather doubt that, though we hear this often eno...I rather doubt that, though we hear this often enough. The question is, what was his siddhanta? What was all that noise about Sahajiyas supposed to be about? You can have sex, just don't think of Radha and Krishna when you do it? And what is the general understanding among his disciples?<BR/><BR/>This is not about whether or not you can be a devotee and have sex. It is about how to make Radha-Krishna smarana as understood by the Goswamis come alive through sacralizing the act of lovemaking. This is why I said that naturalistic sex is not the answer.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-10478812939163863042007-10-11T17:11:00.000-04:002007-10-11T17:11:00.000-04:00"BTW, comparing Jagadananda’s philosophy of spirit..."BTW, comparing Jagadananda’s philosophy of spiritual sexuality with Bhaktisidhanta’s philosophy of rejection of sexuality altogether"<BR/><BR/>BSST was a lifelong celibate by choice. However, he did not forbid all of his disciples to marry, so how can you say that he rejected sexuality (for others) altogether? Indeed, he had many married disciples and guess what? They were making love!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-58861801746163361452007-09-16T09:37:00.000-04:002007-09-16T09:37:00.000-04:00While you wait (soft elevator music)...While you wait (soft elevator music)...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-15085998907951033252007-09-13T08:59:00.000-04:002007-09-13T08:59:00.000-04:00This is indeed an interesting question. Is there a...This is indeed an interesting question. Is there a correlation between a particular set of beliefs and the actions of a group or individuals? The answer must be yes, but how to explain the exceptions? <BR/><BR/>A discuter. In due time.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-48994207787000535862007-09-12T22:16:00.000-04:002007-09-12T22:16:00.000-04:00Rasaparayana d - I find your logic very strange in...Rasaparayana d - I find your logic very strange in how you link the story of Pitambara das to the comments Srila Bhaktisiddhanta or Srila Bhaktivedanta made regarding the conversation at hand and Jagat's post which started this conversation? <BR/><BR/>Pitambara was a disciple of Srila Narayana Maharaja and Srila Haridasa Sastri! There is no tie to the "Babaji camp" or whatever strange way it is described. Speaking to a Babaji here or there doesn't make a connection but diksa certainly does. The point being is that a lousy disciple is a lousy disciple. We have free will to follow our Guru or not follow our Guru. It doesn't matter what camp you are in. <BR/><BR/>I don't know what you know of Haridasa Sastri but he is what most would consider extremely conservative! Do you know anything of the sadacara expected of followers of many of the Babaji Guru's at Radha Kunda? They make the GM/ISKCON expectations (i.e. 4 regs, etc.) look downright laughable and simplistic. That doesn't make one better than the other but none of them are what I would consider cheap unless the disciple takes it cheaply. <BR/><BR/>Do you think Srila Bhaktisiddhanta would speak highly of ISKCON or the GM? ISKCON has had over 80 Sanyassi's and Guru's fall down and their problem wasn't a focus on Radha Krsna, lila smaranam or anything of that nature. They read Bhagavad Gita everyday for 20+ years and still they had severe issues with basic fundamental moral living! Is this emblematic of the very thing Bhaktisiddhanta stood against? Or is it simply the sad state of human nature?<BR/><BR/>Be consistent in how you view others and if you are going to piece together A and B in hope of validating a point please be sure they are relevant to one another.<BR/><BR/>Finally I think it is important to understand that there is no Babaji camp. If you were to gather all of the prominent Babaji's at Radha Kunda you would probably find wide and varying approaches, beliefs, sadhana, etc. They, unlike GM or ISKCON, are not united by one Guruvarga. They are diverse and sometimes as similar to one another as a Swami Narayana disciple who is a Sanyassi to that of a Sanyassi in the GM or ISKCON. Just as the title Swami doesn't mean they all believe, practice and conduct themselves the same neither does the Babaji title.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-8639568425238826032007-09-12T19:13:00.000-04:002007-09-12T19:13:00.000-04:00Advaitaji, I don't want you to quit. I just don't ...Advaitaji, I don't want you to quit. I just don't want you to be insulted if I don't answer. I want to prepare some other things.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-75086661494243547092007-09-12T16:45:00.000-04:002007-09-12T16:45:00.000-04:00Sure Jagadanandaji, as Bhaktisidhanta himself woul...Sure Jagadanandaji, as Bhaktisidhanta himself would have said, "the future belongs to those who wait".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-19837671838041746952007-09-12T16:25:00.000-04:002007-09-12T16:25:00.000-04:00(Jagat, If you want us to quit I will just post th...(Jagat, If you want us to quit I will just post this final one on the fear-factor. I know it is off-topic:)<BR/><BR/>Anuradha,<BR/>I dont think my blog and website are cowardly, though. It is clear from reading them that I am not a gung-ho Bhaktisiddhanta stooge. And in the Gita 17.15 verse I quoted is the word satya - one should speak the truth, but it must also be priya, dear.<BR/>I am not willing to risk my life for telling the truth like local heroes Wilders and Ayaan (Dutch politicians who get police protection for speaking out<BR/>against Islam), at least not yet. You may think it wont get that far with Vaishnavas, but you cant imagine what reactions I received whenever I became a little too bold on my blog. I have learned from experience exactly how far I can go in speaking the truth without rocking the boat too much. There is more than one Tirtha Das among us, and already Jesus Christ, Martin Luther King and Pim Fortuyn, among many others, are famous examples of paying the ultimate price for speaking out.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-53911907496290040232007-09-12T13:59:00.000-04:002007-09-12T13:59:00.000-04:00Modern = tendency to individualism.If you don't mi...Modern = tendency to individualism.<BR/><BR/>If you don't mind, dear friends, I will stop answering in this comment section. I am sure, Rasaparayanji, that we will soon have occasion to discuss this and most of the other points still hanging out there. I will make a point of answering to this argument in the blog proper at some time in the not too distant future.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-50779179918947906662007-09-12T13:55:00.000-04:002007-09-12T13:55:00.000-04:00Advaita,I am very disturbed nowadays that in Holla...Advaita,<BR/><BR/>I am very disturbed nowadays that in Holland discussions about Islam are checked because writers, philosophers and journalists fear being beaten up or even killed.<BR/>It is disturbing to see that this fear also excits amongst critics of my religion.<BR/><BR/>To all the critics out there, keep on criticizing as critically as you can !!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-34058108650897440492007-09-12T13:39:00.000-04:002007-09-12T13:39:00.000-04:00"All these things are part of the modern approach...."All these things are part of the modern approach."<BR/><BR/>I don't get it. What is part of the modern approach ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-68498329675784329542007-09-12T13:33:00.000-04:002007-09-12T13:33:00.000-04:00I'll think about that, Jagat. Still, others may mi...I'll think about that, Jagat. Still, others may misunderstand the words 'spiritual orphan' if they read it, since it may get the meaning given to it by Rasaparayan. Your final paragraph convinces me the word 'orphan' is out and stays out:<BR/><BR/>(Jagat:) "Of course, the use of the word orphan is a somewhat limited metaphor, <B>since we are never really separated from Guru, who was Krishna anyway.</B>"advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-71343797614844870742007-09-12T13:18:00.000-04:002007-09-12T13:18:00.000-04:00The celibacy Bhaktisidhanta spoke about wasn't for...The celibacy Bhaktisidhanta spoke about wasn't for the "here and now" - his or any "here and now" at any point in time in this world. The Radha-Krsna symbolism in Gaudiya Vaisnavism means Manjari. Manjaris are not interested in romance for themselves as individuals. There is a sense of sisterhood (sakhihood, if you will) to be attained and <B>that</B> is where the future of the human spirit lies. It is a fact that the man-woman relation in this world has never been promotive for the individual but on the contrary, as soon as the contract is sealed, there is competition. How can it be otherwise when the event is based on temporary, false identities? Bhaktisidhanta saw this and worked based on the ideal. Granted, there is still a tremendous amount of work to do in this task, and many mistakes will be made along the way. But the idea is brilliant, and hits the vein of the human problem. Sexuality is the binding shackle of the spirit in this world. Indulging in it is sheer madness. I am sorry for disagreeing so radically but that is just my two cents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-63257404655046837292007-09-12T13:17:00.000-04:002007-09-12T13:17:00.000-04:00Perhaps I explained my conception poorly, Advaitaj...Perhaps I explained my conception poorly, Advaitaji. There is no need for you to change something if you mean it a certain way. <BR/><BR/>I have been saying, more or less since the beginning, is that we have to recognize that we are individuals. A kanishtha adhikari is someone who still thinks that he can become a clone of his guru, and worse, expects others in his group to conform to that same stereotype. <BR/><BR/>By way of contrast, the madhyamadhikari recognizes that he is undeconstructibly individual. That even his perception of his guru differs from that of his brother's; that his God, even if he has the same name, is unavoidably different, even if only minutely, from that of his godbrother's. <BR/><BR/>When this happens, the sense of communitas that was so strong in the kanistha adhikari stage is lost, though it leaves a deep impression, and one naturally feels orphaned. However, this means really that we have been given an impetus to going higher in our spiritual search. Indeed, it could be called the second step to becoming a guru oneself.<BR/><BR/>I often like to quote Freud, who said that the death of one's father is the most important experience in a man's life. How much more important is the death of one's spiritual father! How much more of a challenge when there is no easy absolute authority to refer to any more and one has to seek within to find an interpretation of shastra and experience.<BR/><BR/>Of course, the use of the word orphan is a somewhat limited metaphor, since we are never really separated from Guru, who was Krishna anyway.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-31093133519339403982007-09-12T12:20:00.000-04:002007-09-12T12:20:00.000-04:00After pondering the meaning of the word 'spiritual...After pondering the meaning of the word 'spiritual orphan' used in this debate, I hastily took it down from my profile on my blog. I surely didnt mean that in relation to my Guru. I took it to mean that the Guru is physically gone, but not that one has drifted away or defected.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-5097688034356274362007-09-12T12:06:00.000-04:002007-09-12T12:06:00.000-04:00A spiritual orphan should strive to be a spiritual...A spiritual orphan should strive to be a spiritual grownup.<BR/><BR/>The ironies in this thread are many. But this is one: Bhaktisiddhanta's disruption of the traditional guru parampara system had the intention of promoting individualism. He himself made himself an orphan, or perhaps he was forced into orphanhood, by rejecting Bipin Bihari Goswami and thus depriving himself of the natural course--initiation by his real inspiration and father, Bhaktivinoda Thakur. In a similar vein, Bodhayan Maharaj wrote an article where he asked the question why Saraswati Thakur did not obey Gaur Kishor Das Babaji, who explicitly told him not to go to Calcutta, the seat of Kali.<BR/><BR/>All these things are part of the modern approach. Therefore Saraswati Thakur could propose creating an institution for preaching while recognizing that it was more or less doomed if it was successful. This is all part of that great and eternal debate about what kind of society is most favorable to a person attaining full individuation. <BR/><BR/>The limitations of a religious society, possessing certain powers of coercion (as is always the case in any institution--the power to punish and reward behaviors, to expel, etc.), particularly when in the hands of kanishtha adhikaris, are evident to any madhyamadhikari. Being a madhyamadhikari is to say, in a way, I am now an orphan.<BR/><BR/>However, the past is not something that needs to be rejected out of hand. Bhaktivinoda Thakur said that the shallow critic and the fruitless reader are the two enemies of progress. <BR/><BR/>Reformers and revolutionaries tend to excite the heroic mood in their followers through divisive rhetoric. Bhaktivinoda is saying that this is not the way to real progress. Perhaps he had been reading Hegel. Human society insists on synthesis, on the conjunction of opposites. Saraswati Thakur's criticisms, as even Advaitaji concedes, were not altogether without basis. <BR/><BR/>On the other hand, something has been lost in the Gaudiya Math reform. And that is what Advaitaji and others like him, and even to some extent Narayan Maharaj's group, are quite conscious of. This is also what I have been most concerned with over the years. However, I take it a step further.<BR/><BR/>Rasaparayan Dasji says that Saraswati Thakur was "futuristic" in his promotion of celibacy. I do not agree here. I think that in this, he was a product of his times and not ahead of them. The model of a celibate priesthood may have been novel and have provided a certain powerful élan to the expansion of the movement, but in reality its conception of sexuality is narrow in focus and ultimately limited in its potential. Certainly, time is passing this model by. This is implicit in the Radha Krishna symbolism itself.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-26696203680773491302007-09-12T11:51:00.000-04:002007-09-12T11:51:00.000-04:00Anuradha, every sampradaya and camp has its Bouyer...Anuradha, every sampradaya and camp has its Bouyeris and vander Graafs (or for the non-Dutch: Its Bin Ladens and Tirtha Dases (Tom Dreschers). Call it fear, but please consider the following phrases from the Gita: <I>tan akrtsna vido mandan krtsnavin na vicalayet</I> (3.29) 'The wise do not disturb the minds of the ignorant'. And <I>anudvega kara vakyam satyam priyam hitam ca yat....vanmaya tapa ucyate</I> "One's words should not <B>upset anyone and should be truthful, dear and beneficial</B>. This is verbal discipline." (17.15)advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-11373009846100739392007-09-12T11:26:00.000-04:002007-09-12T11:26:00.000-04:00Advaita,If you have the time please clarify ? I th...Advaita,<BR/><BR/>If you have the time please clarify ?<BR/> <BR/>I thought you came to this U-turn because of the realization that the effects of your critique were uncontrolable. Bhakti is a fragile thing in the beginning, faith of the neophyte is easily destroyed and with an article on the net you offer no instant aftercare. Plus you took back some of the more speculative criticism. Most of your critique still stands, but from that moment on you dealt with it in a more subtle and polite manner.<BR/>Good.<BR/><BR/>But now I get the impression it is fear that brought you to this. Fear of the unlikely possibility of a bhakta turning into Volkert van der Graaf or Mohammed Bouyeri after reading your GD contributions. I do not think you are THAT high-profile and the chance that a frustrated bhakta starts chasing you with a baseball bat are practically nil.<BR/><BR/>I think disagreeing with or opposing the BIG gurus we are talking about, also my beloved SBSST, is everyones right in our 'free' world. In Holland I vote liberal. Gays have the right to organize a pride-festival on the canals, we can attend a Ratha-yathra on Dam Square.<BR/><BR/>So if fear is the reason, put it aside, and continue your quest to oppose the BIG gurus as you previously did. My only advice is... remember that SBSST IS a devotee of your Lord Krisha as well and thus it is in everyones SPIRITUAL interest to have the discussions with its disagreements in a civil and attentive manner.<BR/><BR/>That wasn't always the case in the past.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-55173207667459629582007-09-12T10:49:00.000-04:002007-09-12T10:49:00.000-04:00I suppose naming Pitambara directly has become ine...I suppose naming Pitambara directly has become inevitable. His actions have become emblematic of the very thing Bhaktisidhanta strongly stood against. For the motivated comdemners in GM', he could mean just that precious piece of evidence the prosecution needed to make its case. But fortunately for everyone, Pitambara does not call himself 'baba'. <BR/>Pitambara indeed has connections with both sides, but follows neither. I believe Bhaktisidhanta Saraswati, as well as his successor Bhaktivedanta Swami, both made strong localized statements that were ultimately based on a wide and general principle of philosophy. They were not wrong. There are incidents emerging even today that prove them correct. <BR/><BR/>Anon - I am sorry you find yourself a spritual orphan. And in this you are not alone. <BR/><BR/>Rasaparayana dAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-15872877942844624852007-09-12T06:39:00.000-04:002007-09-12T06:39:00.000-04:00Anuradha: "It seems that stepping on peoples' toes...Anuradha: "It seems that stepping on peoples' toes is inevitable as soon as you hit the spotlights." <BR/><BR/>That is precisely why I made a PR- U-turn after quitting Gaudiya Discussions - from then on <B>no</B> more direct, public attacks on or criticism of the big Gurus with many followers. (Hoge bomen vangen veel wind)advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-46774389336048552062007-09-12T03:10:00.000-04:002007-09-12T03:10:00.000-04:00Advaita,I understood you and knew you were complim...Advaita,<BR/><BR/>I understood you and knew you were complimenting.<BR/><BR/>I am still angry about the murder. Though it was to be expected considering his critical standpoint in the islam debate, nobody expected the murderer to be a vegetarian animal rights activist angry over a fur issue.<BR/><BR/>It seems that stepping on peoples' toes is inevitable as soon as you hit the spotlights.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-61132843622223549452007-09-11T21:33:00.000-04:002007-09-11T21:33:00.000-04:00Rasaraparayana d - I imagine you are speaking of P...Rasaraparayana d - I imagine you are speaking of Pitambara Das? His "connection" with a Babaji is that he met one but he certainly never received any guidance or siksa from one. He took diksa and guidance from Srila Narayana Swami and Haridas Sastri in Vrindavana although he certainly doesn't represent any of those he credits as being his Guru's. Ask anyone in their groups and they cringe at the name.<BR/><BR/>Back to the point made by Anuradha and I it seems that people love to repeat statements of those the claim to follow to suit their whim without ever considering the time, place and circumstance which led to the statement. Just see how most utilize Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami's words to insult and degrade his godbrothers. Regardless of how I have ever viewed those statements I could never understand why he was so heavy and seemingly insulting but to see the manner in which his followers utilize those same statements is horrifying and had a lot to do with why I left the associations of these missions. Now I am a spiritual orphan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-55963343199154933092007-09-11T15:54:00.000-04:002007-09-11T15:54:00.000-04:00Anuradha:"I guess the comparison with Pim Fortuyn ...Anuradha:<BR/>"I guess the comparison with Pim Fortuyn is just in the sense you meant it to make sense."<BR/><BR/>Let me explain. For me, calling someone 'politically incorrect' is a compliment. My attitude towards Fortuyn is just like that towards BSS: I admire their guts to speak out, at the risk of persecution, though I strongly oppose some of their views.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-59968465453532822672007-09-11T14:41:00.000-04:002007-09-11T14:41:00.000-04:00By the way,I am happy too with the way this discus...By the way,<BR/><BR/>I am happy too with the way this discussion is going on. It seems most of the commentators know what they are talking about, although presenting different points of view.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-58633197654447191132007-09-11T14:31:00.000-04:002007-09-11T14:31:00.000-04:00Advaita,I guess the comparison with Pim Fortuyn is...Advaita,<BR/><BR/>I guess the comparison with Pim Fortuyn is just in the sense you meant it to make sense.<BR/><BR/>I have to comment though that as an innocent and ignorant westerner I was never trained in thinking vaisnavas outside the Gaudiya Math were all sahajiyas. <BR/>My teachers (in the line of SBSST) warned me again and again not to label devotees that easily. But then again... I avoided teachers that tried to teach me otherwise....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com