tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post115586025384130238..comments2024-03-18T13:27:17.365-04:00Comments on Jagat: Nitya-vihara and Achintya-bhedabhedaJagadananda Dashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-1157043923727985642006-08-31T13:05:00.000-04:002006-08-31T13:05:00.000-04:00Jagat sometimes when I read your stuff my eyes gla...Jagat sometimes when I read your stuff my eyes glaze over and I have to wonder why you are so sure of your various conceptions? I am not trying to be hurtful but it is something you need to hear: you present your esoteric interpretations as if you have realized them (experienced them) as truth. There is a chasm of difference between the understanding of Radha Krishna esoterica presented and thought of by people who rely on their own inexperience in these matters compared to the actual situation they think they comprehend. <BR/><BR/>You present your esoteric epistemology as if you KNOW that what you are saying is truth. For someone in your position all you can do when contemplating the esoteric nature of rasa lila is rely on the words of others. This is because you have no direct experience of what you are writing about. I can see that very clearly whenever you write on these topics. It's one thing to opine about the the fundamental aspects of bhagavat philosophy which you may have some realization of, but it is another thing entirely when you attempt to ascribe your inexperienced words and conceptions to a realm you have never actually directly experienced.<BR/><BR/>The nature of Radha Krishna's confidential lila is not something which an inexperienced person can opine on with authority. It's one thing if you simply repeat the words of people you believe to have actually directly experienced the inner workings of Radha Krishna rasa lila, it's another thing entirely to put forth your own esoteric interpretations as truth while lacking that direct experience. You can only get it wrong. <BR/><BR/>I only say this because I know you are not experiencing what you are writing about concerning the esoteric details of gaudiya tattva. There is a philosopher who can come up with myriad ways to contemplate esoteric truths, but due to the nature of those truths philosophers are unable to truly know if what they think is truth actually is truth. That is why Krishna says above all be a yogi, not a philosopher, connect with him, then you can have those truths shown to you, then you can truly know from experience what is reality. Truth isn't something which is arrived at by philosophical perambulations. Truth is something which is known by experience alone. It is revealed, not attained.Vrajahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06535159097241083544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-1156697805457505952006-08-27T12:56:00.000-04:002006-08-27T12:56:00.000-04:00Just try to understand the profound meaning here.T...Just try to understand the profound meaning here.<BR/><BR/>There is yet one more thing that I need to say: One loves the devotee because the devotee loves Krishna. The devotee in fact IS Krishna, in the sense that he has become one with Krishna's internal potency. Krishna is not Krishna alone, but Krishna and the internal potency, which includes Krishna's dhama and all his associates, including the sadhaka devotees in this world.<BR/><BR/>The sadhaka and sadhika thus do not love each other separate from Krishna, but because through each other, they enter the internal potency. Just like the gopis in chapter 10.30 who are imitating Krishna's pastimes in separation from Krishna.<BR/><BR/>It is not a replacement. It is a kind of ersatz perfection. But even the ersatz points to the real. As Karl Stern comments on the above quote from Schiller: "...between the spiritual order and order in the human family, there exists a correspondence. Thus the lives of men are related tothe order of ideas by a relevance that is more than psychological. All tragedy of the contingent and haphazard is a mysterious signpost towards the meaningful, the immutable and the harmonious."<BR/><BR/>This is how Krishna's lila stands in relation to our lives. Both point to one another as ideal and image.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-1156697034953954832006-08-27T12:43:00.000-04:002006-08-27T12:43:00.000-04:00I have to add some things about my personal situat...I have to add some things about my personal situation: Perhaps because I have ambitions to be a teacher that I have decided to be a little more open about my personal situation than is customary. Some people take this to be exhibitionism, just like so many other bloggers out there who seem to have a curious need to expose themselves in public. Others see it as a kind of deep-seated need for approval and psychological sustenance. Some others even see a trace of the Don Juan complex—a kind of trawling for susceptible women to seduce. Whatever subtle truth there may be in these analyses, from my point of view, I do this as a kind of personal safety net. If I am to be a teacher, I will not acquiesce to any kind of hypocritical hagiography. I do not think that this will reduce my true value.<BR/><BR/>In fact, I have a fundamental philosophical objection to the kind of hagiography that takes the spiritual master to be an eternally perfect icon flown in from the spiritual world, in other words, a spiritual master as something other than <I>human</I>. I do not believe that the guru comes in two dimensions only. The guru <I>must be human</I> for bhakti sadhana to have any meaning.<BR/><BR/>The reason for this is that in the dichotomy of being and becoming, it is <B>becoming</B> is what allows the jiva to experience ananda. Ananda, or rasa, is not a static, undifferentiated state, but one of evolution into God's infinite being. It is an adventure that God himself is experiencing and through which he also experiences rasa.<BR/><BR/>The thing about telling someone to just "chant and be happy" is that it only takes one half of the achintya-bhedabheda equation—that is the part that is about "being." Yes, we are all eternal particles of sat-chit-ananda, eternally united with God and we need only remember that in order to access an eternal state bliss. But that is only half of the story.<BR/><BR/>Do you think you could tell the gopis to just "chant and be happy"? Was Ramachandra Puri not telling Madhavendra Puri to just "chant and be happy"? To tell someone to be happy with being alone and not with becoming is like telling him to be a jnani and not a bhakta. The sat-chit-ananda of the jnani is not the same as that of the bhakta. <BR/><BR/>What is the meaning of the jiva's being separated from Krishna by the curtain of Maya? Is it simply a punishment for an original sin that is so far in the past that no one can remember it? That seems to be the story we have been told, but I think the rasa lila reveals another, deeper message. The rasa lila and the rest of the gopi cycle in the Bhagavatam is a philosophy of suffering. Suffering is separation from Krishna, which is simply Krishna's way of making it possible for the jiva to experience the infinite ananda of the loving relationship with Him.<BR/><BR/>Here is a quote from Schiller, a 19th century German philosopher--"<B>Being is sensible only in becoming</B>; in the latter, rather, it is itself posited as eternity. But in the actualization (of being) through opposition, there is necessarily a becoming. <B>Without the conception of a humanly suffering God--a conception common to all the mysteries and spiritual religions of the past--history remains wholly unintelligible</B>." (<I>Über das Wesen der menschlichen Freiheit, Schellings Werke</I>, ed. A. Weiss, 3, 499 (1907).<BR/> <BR/>This statement summarizes much of what I am getting at. The "concept of a humanly suffering God" means Krishna himself suffering desire. It is all in the idea of God voluntarily relinquishing his divinity in order to experience uncertainty, and therefore rasa. But this concept comes later, in the second rasa-lila, that of the Gita Govinda. The Bhagavata rasa-lila sees things from the point of view of the jiva, which is what I am mainly talking about here.<BR/><BR/>Did the gopis not have obstacles to overcome? Did they not have to suffer? Some gopis were held back by their husbands and confined to their rooms. They had to give up their bodies to be able to join Krishna. Was this not hard to do? We think that the gopis are nitya-siddhas, so they did not have to overcome any challenges in order to attain Krishna, but if they did not, then what would be the meaning of Krishna's praising them by saying <I>durjara-geha-zRGkhalAM saMvRzcya</I> ("You cut off the unbreakable chains of household life" 10.32.22) or Uddhava saying, <I>dustyajam Arya-pathaM svajanaM ca hitvA</I> ("who abandoned the path of civilized life and kinfolk, which are so hard to give up?" 10.47.58)?<BR/><BR/>If you look in the introduction to my <I>Mystic Poetry</I>, you will see that I have written a little about Jiva Goswami's analysis of separation. <BR/><BR/>Krishna sends a message from Uddhava in which he says that he is always present to them in the form of Brahman or Paramatma. Well, the gopis know this, but that does not satisfy them. This is like Krishna telling the gopis to chant and be happy. I am everywhere, so what's your problem. The gopis have a problem with that philosophy, however. <BR/><BR/>Then Krishna suggests that they are present with him in another manifestation, somewhere. This is like saying that lila-smaranam is a substitute for separation. (There are some in the Gaudiya Math who distinguish themselves from the "sahajiyas" by saying that they (the GM) worship in separation, whereas the sahajiyas imagine themselves through lila-smaranam to be in union with Krishna. The GM, following Madhavendra's and Mahaprabhu's path of love in separation are superior.) But this is nonsense. Lila-smaranam is not a substitute for separation, but is the only alternative for those suffering in separation. <I>tava kathAmRtaM tapta-jIvanam</I>. The gopis at the beginning of chapter 2 of the Panchadhyaya are engaged in lila-smaranam as a survival tactic. But just as it was not a substitute for sakshatkara there, it is not a substitute for sakshatkar for the sadhaka either. Anyway, the gopis will not take any substitutes for Krishna's physical presence.<BR/><BR/>And that goes for the third possibility, which takes place when Krishna is in Dvaraka and he tells the gopis, "I come to you in the hallucinations you have of me. In fact, I never leave Vrindavan. I am always there. You simply do not always see me (<I>mayA parokSaM bhajatA</I>)." There are some nice verses about this in the Hamsaduta (around verse 100). But the gopis will not accept this version either. They are very concrete-minded.<BR/><BR/>But in all this, Krishna is such a rascal that he says, "I can only reward you by making you suffer."Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31351038.post-1156685238545382332006-08-27T09:27:00.000-04:002006-08-27T09:27:00.000-04:00Dear Anuradha,Thank you very much for your comment...Dear Anuradha,<BR/><BR/>Thank you very much for your comment. Though I have decided to suspend publishing blogs for the time being, I felt I had to answer you here, as a matter of politeness. <BR/><BR/>It is too bad that in all the times we have met, we have never had the chance to discuss any of these things. I never had any idea that you had read anything of mine. It would no doubt have been easier for you to make your considerations clearer in person, even though writing also has its advantages. And, of course, if you feel that by expressing yourself in French, you would be able to make yourself clearer, I have no problem with that.<BR/><BR/>I am not sure exactly what you are refering to when you ask if I really believe what I write. I do not consider myself a completely free thinker, i.e. someone "qui, en matière religieuse , ne se fie qu'à la raison, qui ne veut être influencé par aucun dogme établi." In fact, my approach is much more traditional than that.<BR/><BR/>The complete human being has not only a heart, but a head and a body--in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, we believe in a spiritual body, and even that the so-called material body is spiritualized by engaging in devotional service. This means that even though bhakti is the center of all the yogas, reason and the senses must be engaged in the service of bhakti. <B>I always remember that prema is the prayojan, no matter how far short of the goal I fall.</B> <BR/><BR/>So I am a bhakta before being an intellectual, and I am only using reason in the service of understanding the message that has come to me through my experience of devotional practice and through my study of the devotional scriptures, especially the insights of Sri Rupa Goswami. I consider myself the unalloyed follower of Sri Chaitanya and the six Goswamis. <BR/><BR/>Now considering what I have to say about sexuality, that may seem odd, since we have seemingly incontrovertible proof that there is absolutely no place for sexuality in the bhakti path, or indeed any yogic path whatsoever.<BR/><BR/>I feel that this is a misunderstanding. I do not deny that the approach to bhakti that renounces all sexual practice is a legitimate one, but I simply don't think that it is the <B>natural path</B>. Nor do I think that sexuality has to be renounced (or sublimated) in order to achieve perfection in devotion. In fact, I believe that it is far more natural or easier (sahaja) to engage in devotional practice with a partner of the opposite sex, using the natural love that exists between the sexes as an engine for devotional experience. The only real consideration is that both partners be committed sadhakas. This means that the misogyny that is the natural tendency of celibate-dominated paths is completely rejected. <B>The symbol of the Divine Couple and the honor given to the divine feminine in Srimati Radharani must be given a functioning role, nay a place of honor, in the everyday practices and attitudes of aspirants to prema-bhakti.</B> <BR/><BR/>Because I happen to have a little knowledge of Freud and Jung (and others), and happen to find that their theories, each in their own way, add credence to my understanding, I sometimes quote them. However, the principal source of my inspiration is always the Divine Couple, Sri Sri Radha and Krishna, and the theologies that have been developed around them, especially that of Srila Rupa Goswami. However, all the Vraja-based Vaishnava sampradayas have a generally similar point of view and I do not mind hearing what they have to say.<BR/><BR/>I am thus not in some kind of "spiritual puberty" where my only motivation is to "montrer le doigt à l'autorité." The positions I have taken are the fruit of a long and arduous engagement with this path, to which I have been completely committed for 36 years now. As such, I am eternally grateful to all my gurus and all the Vaishnavas, of all sampradayas, and I offer them my humblest respects again and again, begging them to be merciful to me and not to reject me because I have some ideas that appear different from theirs and radical to the orthodoxy. <BR/><BR/>In our Western society we have a great deal of hand-wringing about sexuality. The extremes of complete liberty and complete renunciation are both complete failures, in my opinion. Sahajiyaism is often misunderstood as some kind of libertinism. It is not. It is a sadhana that must be practised with great care. Like all spiritual paths, it is full of pitfalls and dangers--<I>kSurasya dhArA</I>, as the Upanishad says. It is, however, extremely powerful and fully complementary to the other devotional practices of sravanam, kirtanam, smaranam, vandanam, etc.<BR/><BR/>My current situation makes it difficult for me to speak about these things without compromising myself further. God challenges us at all times, and sometimes it is difficult to meet that challenge. Strangely enough, religion can be a bigger challenge than irreligion when cultivating the path of prema. Raghunath Das says, <I>na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa-niruktaM kila kuru</I>. This is why I pray for the mercy of the Lord, the guru and the devotees, to help me do the right thing, for their sake.<BR/><BR/>I greatly appreciate your kind well wishes. I beg to remain your humble servant,<BR/><BR/>Jagadananda Das.Jagadananda Dashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05887720845815026518noreply@blogger.com